How to actually hand off a chamber

Rachel Gorman: Someone's in a leadership position, how did they get there? And that might be a great way to start a conversation with a board of, hey, looking back now, what worked really well, what didn't work well, and also because we're in the relationship business, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to some chamber member, you know, I call them our leadership members. How did they feel about the transition? What do they like to see in their executive director, presidents or CEOs? What's working? What's not working? This is a good opportunity to open that up.

Ted Wind: And I think the core point of all of this is it's never too early to start thinking about these things. Have those initial conversations with your board. Get the ball rolling there because you never know what tomorrow will bring. And you know, the more prepared you can be as a chamber leader, the better for your board, your staff, and your members in the community you serve.

Hi, I'm Ted, and I build software for chambers of commerce. For the past decade, chamber tools were all built the same way. one clunky system for every chamber. But if I've learned one thing, it's that no two chambers are alike. That's why on this show, we go beyond the ribbon cut with top chamber leaders to share the unique programs, processes, and what makes their chamber work and to give you new ideas you can take back to your chamber. This is Beyond the Ribbon Cut.

Welcome back to Beyond the Ribbon Cut, the podcast for chamber leaders. I'm your host Ted Wind from Diagonal for Chambers and my guest today is Rachel Gorman, president and CEO of the Muskegon Lakeshore Chamber of Commerce in Michigan. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rachel Gorman: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for this conversation.

Ted Wind: Thanks for coming on, Rachel. So, I'd love to start off the episode with Home Base. For listeners who've never made it over to the west side of Michigan, can you paint us a picture of Muskegon and the business community your chamber serves?

Rachel Gorman: Absolutely. Yeah. Because if you are listening and you haven't been to West Michigan, you got to get to West Michigan. We're on the best coast in the United States. But um Muskegon County, so we are a countywide chamber is located in West Michigan about 40 minutes away from Grand Rapids. That's a good reference point for folks. And then our chamber is made up of 1,100 members. um primarily manufacturers which you see a lot in the state of Michigan. We do a lot of aerospace parts, automotive engines, a lot of what you know pieces of equipment we all interact with every day. The world runs on equipment from Muskegon and so that's a huge part of our chamber membership. Uh but because we live in West Michigan on the shores of Lake Michigan, we have a growing tourism industry and identity in Muskegon and that has been present in our membership as well. And it's been kind of surreal and really cool lately. That's that mix of our economy has really kept our community a little bit more recession proof than others. So our chamber Oh, I should know this off the top of my head, but we're over 125 years old. So that's really exciting to be in this position and carry on that legacy of the business community that really drives a lot of change in Muskegon.

Ted Wind: I love that. And yeah, as you mentioned, I mean, that's such an interesting dynamic of, you know, these large manufacturers to the mom and pops. I'm sure those, you know, chamber mixers that you guys have probably an interesting group of folks coming in when you have that that combination of the small businesses and these big industrial manufacturers.

Rachel Gorman: It absolutely is. And it's um you know you wouldn't even guess sometimes I think before I got into this work right like quote like define by definition small businesses but the accounts they have are major accounts globally now you know right we're all working in a global economy doing incredible work right alongside right like um national companies that we all know oh I should have mentioned this food processing is also a huge industry in Michigan but in West Michigan we just had a historic investment in our community from Chobani um for their La Colombe division. So, ready-to-drink coffee drinks. So, yeah, it's we have it all in Muskegon.

Ted Wind: I just had some Chobani for breakfast today. So, that's uh that's perfect.

Rachel Gorman: It's so great. Now, you'll connect it to Muskegon always.

Ted Wind: And one more quick question as far as the chamber. Could you just give us a sense of the team size? How many how many folks are on staff?

Rachel Gorman: Yep, absolutely. So, our chamber again, we're a countywide chamber. We have a staff of six and then our board right now is 12 members. Our bylaws we have anywhere from need to have anywhere I should say from 10 to 17 members. So uh I always encourage everyone from our membership to really look at our board, really look at our staff because our goal is for any chamber member to see themselves represented whether that's by the industry they represent but also the communities that we all reside in within Muskegon County. There should be some kind of connection. Um, and we really stay true to that and that is a huge guiding post for us when we look at board selection and nomination processes.

Ted Wind: I love that. I love that. We'll touch on some board questions later on before we really get into the meat and potatoes of the episode. I'd love if we could share a little bit more about your story. I think your chamber story is really incredible. I believe your very first chamber job was an internship all the way back in 2013. Could you walk us through that road from chamber intern to now chamber president?

Rachel Gorman: Absolutely. Thank you for asking. It's a really now right connecting the dots backwards. It's a really sweet story and I don't think any of us in our careers right can know where things are going but um relevant to my career journey. just um wanted to share to I grew up in Muskegon and like I've mentioned because we have been such a historically manufacturing dominated community um we've been through really high ups and really low downs. So when I was in high school during the Great Recession, you know, it was very concerning to be in Muskegon because our community was not thriving at that time. It was really easy like it always is to stay down. Um, but my priority after high school was to get a great education and get out of town as soon as I could. Fortunately, I ended up going to a local university that required some incredible internship opportunities. So, my last internship as part of that degree ended up being at the Muskegon Lakeshore Chamber of Commerce located in beautiful downtown Muskegon.

So, you can imagine my delight at 20 years old, 21 I should say, coming downtown to this building that I think I saw before, but I knew it was new, but didn't really know. And of course, had no real idea what a chamber was, but I was intrigued by the internship opportunity. Did my research and was hired as an intern. And so it was really this great opportunity to learn about one chamber work, but our chamber was really leading the way to rebranding Muskegon's identity and building community pride, which is so important, but it was in direct conflict with where I was personally as far as I got to get out of Muskegon. So I say that because I was spending my days promoting this amazing community, meeting all these incredible people, and then I would go home and kind of have this like crisis of like, well, maybe I should stay here.

So all that to say because right everybody calls the chamber for anything. I met so many people that were relocating back to Muskegon and so I would have some very intentional conversations of, you know, are you happy with that move? And a couple members just really took the time to say, hey, if you want to go to a big city, you should go cuz you're going to thrive, but I think you should consider that you're never going to have the opportunity that you have now to impact your own hometown with this amazing, you know, juxtaposition we are in our history. So after that, settled down and I was super excited to be in Muskegon.

So mid-internship, Cindy Larson, our most recent chamber president, grabbed me one day and said, "Hey, like you're doing a really great job. We would love for you to help out at our front desk, answer phones." And at that point, right, I'm still in college. I'm like, "A desk job that's not, you know what I mean? Like answering phones? It's within like a 9-to-5 work?" I'm like, "Heck yeah." So I took that job mid internship. So still interning but then my days I wasn't interning working at the chamber and again just getting all this kind of Muskegon 101 information.

So at that time um I was the events and marketing intern going to school for a degree to pursue a career in event planning and the chamber event director at that time was looking at you know what her retirement succession plan looked like. So um they pulled Cindy and that person pulled me in and just was really honest and just said like hey this person wants to retire. you seem to be a really great fit on our team. Would you consider coming on full-time after this internship? And so I just remember going home to my parents and just talking about like, well, I got a job offer today. I think I still have like a semester left in my undergrad. And again, I was like, oh, should I take it? They're like, it's good to have a job in this economy, right? Like it's a good thing to have a job after graduation. So, so grateful for that opportunity. Um, took it on. So I was our events and advocacy coordinator at the chamber for three years at that time. So doing chamber events, but also the person I succeeded on just happened to be the staff administrator for our government affairs committee and political events is what I thought I was going to get into. So it was like I was just like, can I run government affairs? Can everyone on the team's like sure go ahead. I mean I had so much fun doing that and it was such a great experience.

So I was at the chamber for about three or four years at that time learning as much as I could doing chamber events but really also getting this unique opportunity to grow our government affairs programming and really understand where chambers sit in this awesome middle ground between private sector businesses and every level of government and how we can be an advocate for our small businesses and those realms.

So that was my first chamber stint. And then you know being around so many members I'm a sucker for higher education. I think I always knew I wanted to get my MBA and so I would talk to members about that like hey you know is an MBA worth it? Were you happy you did that? Should I do an MPA route? Because we work so closely with local governments. But the resounding message from a lot of our members were though if you're going to do it do it now before your life gets busy. Yeah. cuz I was single at that time and life you know that I had a great opportunity so took a job at our local community college then um after leaving the chamber at that point had an opportunity then to pursue my MBA while I was there but always stayed in touch with Cindy always was I like to say like a the biggest right chamber cheerleader. I had nothing but a great experience and that was really important to me and what I want to talk about just like leaving right any job opportunity on the best relationship terms we can and I do think that had a huge influence then on getting the position I'm in now. So that was Yeah. So it's funny now being back cuz I kind of tell people like well my first lap around the chamber we did things this way. Now here we are now doing things a little different.

Ted Wind: I love that. I love that. And as part of that, so you left the chamber for a few years, went ahead, got your MBA, then came back as COO. What did that time away teach you that maybe you couldn't have learned from inside the building?

Rachel Gorman: Yeah. So, my time away was at a community college in grad school, and then the pandemic happened, which is just obviously this life event we're all living through, but it's just so funny. Our graduation was on March 8th, 2020 and cap and gown. I just remember all of us like what are we going to do with all this free time? Everything changed that week.

But what I want to share that's relevant to this podcast is watching how the chamber was able to support small businesses during this time of crisis um reinforced to me that this organization is just such a powerful voice not only for the business community but leading our community through crisis. And again, as a like peak millennial coming on age in the recession, I remember thinking like, okay, if the chamber can survive a global pandemic, like they the chamber will be around forever. And I just remember remember being personally so assured like, okay, good, the chamber's going on because I think there was always kind of this nagging in me of like, I'll make my way back to the chamber someday. I don't know what that looks like.

So, we got through the pandemic. I took another job at a local nonprofit and got some really great experience there. And that was what was really important to me was post the chamber gaining some more education but also exposure to different opportunities. So um in higher ed and at this nonprofit having the opportunity to supervise people, learning what it means to fund raise, walk alongside a business community in that way. And then I did run for office. I was successful there. But that really was important to the job now of understanding local government as a politician, how you interact with them. So all these lessons that kind of culminated into I think what positioned me in a good place to then come back to the chamber.

So to what you said like how did that you know all come about again it was really this nagging of like oh I just I love the chamber work so much. Cindy had stayed, you know, such a huge mentor to me throughout these new career changes, giving me advice on what moves to make, but it really dawned on me one day out of nowhere, I just thought, hey, if I never say I'm interested in coming back to the chamber, I can't be mad when someone else that job. So, great opportunity to sit down with Cindy and just talk about that. She happened to be, you know, in this state of mind, too.

So, we're talking 2022. So, we're post pandemic and like many of our members, I think anybody that might have been like considering retirement before the pandemic, either after that pandemic, you know, realize like I have to have a succession plan or I'm going to do this job till I die, you know, but Cindy, you know, was pretty transparent thinking of like, I got to start making a plan. And that just opened up a great opportunity for me to say, hey, I would love to come back to this team. I have no idea how succession planning works at the chamber, but I you know the time away helped me realize how how passionate I am about chamber work.

So great opportunity then like you said to come back as our chief operating officer and have a year transition with Cindy to learn how to do the job as a president and CEO. But ultimately and I think we'll get into this it was the board's decision to you know move forward on this succession plan. So lot lot of steps in between that but I did come back as COO 3 years ago my work anniversary my team just reminded me which the early days I would say when people like how's it going your mind shift from being an employee to being the one in charge like things are just so funny but I'll never forget the weekend the Monday after like Cindy retired like walking down and seeing our office and just thinking like okay the building is still there like all these sick she's like it's still standing we're doing

Ted Wind: Oh, that's awesome. I love that. And yeah, that that's so funny. I mean, it's something we hear a lot, too, like especially from, you know, folks that involved in the chamber world for a long time, even if they happen to move towns or uh go to a different place. That nagging feeling inside, you know, to stay involved with the chamber and stay active in the chamber, even if you're not directly part of it is, I think, is part of the beauty and the love that so many of us have for this work.

You touched on it a little bit, but what I'd love to get into today's episode is talking a little bit more about succession planning for chambers. A huge share of the chamber world is staring down a similar situation to you and Cindy, right? Long-tenured CEOs are retiring and almost nobody really talks about how to actually hand off a chamber. Now, the actual transition you mentioned kind of stepped in in October 2024 after Cindy Larson had led the organization for decades. What did that transition actually look like from the inside? How early did those kind of succession conversations start? Who drove them? And could you kind of walk through what that process looked like from your perspective?

Rachel Gorman: Yeah. Yeah. And these are the, you know, I think back to my experience now and there was no road map. Even Cindy's transition to president CEO of the chamber. I mean, right. So, we're talking like what you said, she's been in this role for over 20 years. She had worked for the state of Michigan in their economic development corporation department before, but it was really the board that put together a selection committee and had to decide how are we going to search for our next CEO.

And I should say in Muskegon that time when they hired Cindy was a little weird in that there had been movement in our community where the chamber was absorbed into a larger firm with the economic development in our community convention and visitors bureau because that's what needed to happen for where Muskegon was. So we're entering then a time where it's like okay the chamber is able to stand on its own now the convention of visitors bureau. So there's a newly formed board that is faced with this challenge, right, of like who's going to lead this organization. Someone on that board had worked with Cindy before at the chamber and said we should talk to Cindy Larson. So they interviewed her. She came back to the organization.

So thinking about that, you know, first what do we all do? We go to our bylaws. There was no, "Hey, here's how we hire or do a search for, you know, a new chamber president." So then you go to your chamber resources. I know Bob Thomas was called with the Michigan Association of Chamber Professionals. Ton of chamber resources at the national level as well with ACCE. So I think it's a great opportunity. Cindy could take that as a roadmap but then go to the board because it needs to be their decision. And I think she presented them with hey first one I need to start thinking about transition. I think there is a candidate I have in mind that could be really great. You have the power though to open up a search, a local search, a national search. And she, this is what we do, right, with our board, just really was really honest and transparent of I know based on the information I know, right? I think Rachel would be a good candidate, but she really said like this has to be your decision.

And that's where Cindy and I, you know, like not that we were locked in hip, but we were very intentional to like distance ourselves so this didn't necessarily have to look like a package decision. And that's where I needed to be really transparent during these conversations and understand and articulate to these board members like I want what's best for the chamber. Yes, I think I am the best choice for that but ultimately um you know you got to take in these options.

So what our board chair then did was start a selection committee. So that was ended up being a mix of current board officers but a lot of our past board chairs. And the way our bylaw structure works is we have a new chair every year and that is who the president CEO of the chamber is our direct report to. So again a lot of institutional knowledge about this board and working with Cindy. And so they together you know made a curriculum and criteria of how are we going to interview for this position. And I believe their you know strategy at that time was to start with interviewing me and then based on that like there are many roads right it's like okay let's move forward hire Rachel or like let's do a search and now that I'm saying this too I should there was some steps before that I think too where you know Cindy because she I should say because the president CEO of our chamber you know oversees the staff the board is pretty transparent and understanding she can hire a COO and they really don't have any insight to that, but she wanted to be transparent of if I'm going to hire Rachel for this job, I want it to be an opportunity for her to learn from me over the next year with the intention that she would take over.

So I do think I interviewed you know with that in mind but ultimately too there was must have been a time when I was here as CEO there was an official vote of the board you know so that was really you know important to keep things you know legal because you know with 1,100 members you got 1,100 people that also have an opinion of like hey how did we get you know to this new leadership and so the board really needed to be comfortable with the process they were following um do it with integrity and feel good about it. And know every step along the way, you know, cuz this did not happen within a week. I'm talking, you know, I think I had this conversation with Cindy in like March and maybe my hire was like in April or August of that year.

So, every step of the way though, I was just very realistic with myself of um I would just kind of say like the dream could die today and that's what I really need. Like that's how bad I wanted it. But again, that's how much I wanted the right leadership transition for the chamber to happen. Like I want it to be me, it could be someone else.

Um, like you said, it's an interesting, you know, point in the industry and the chamber industry right now because there isn't, you know, this is how you have to do. And I think, you know, even outside the chamber, a lot of nonprofits are facing this transition as well. and what's right or what's wrong I think really depends on the organization the mission and that board makeup. So for many reasons, right, we need to be really intentional about the board officers and directors we choose to lead our organizations. And I say this with love. Like the board chair at the time, I remember, you know, now them saying like, oh, we, you know, I didn't think there was, you know, being a chair, you know, comes with a lot of responsibilities, but to be the chair during this incredible transition was, you know, was a big deal.

Ted Wind: And while we're on the board topic, I think it would be helpful for listeners at home if you could share a little bit more about how you actually went about kind of winning over the board and longtime members as that successor.

Rachel Gorman: It was an interesting like challenge and like again I was really motivated by it but because at that point I had been away from the chamber for a little bit. So, a funny mix of past board chairs that knew me, but also like they knew me when I was I mean like a child, right? So, having to reintroduce myself as like, hey, so I'm married now, you know? It was like but this is who Rachel Gorman is. Here's this experience that I've gained.

So, I had to take and I took that very seriously of like, okay, even though I know this person and I've known them for a while, they've been a mentor to me. this is a different conversation now that I need to present, you know, as a hopeful executive in this role.

And then I also had board members that completely never saw me here and quite frankly some of them like didn't even know who I was and that's fine or or knew that I was a local politician, right? And so they came at it with kind of those advocate roles of like, hey, should we be concerned that this is, you know, a leader in our community already from this point of view? How does this work? So, but just starting again with our mission of our organization and where I saw my leadership and skills could take that. That was the most important part of the interview process.

And even for past board chairs, it was really important for me to reach out to them even though they weren't on that selection committee just again because they have given so much of their leadership expertise as volunteers for this organization. I wanted them to feel good about this change that was going to happen and I think that was very important um for them to feel included in that even though they didn't actually have a vote in it. But that's the work of the chamber is all about relationships.

But there was one person though, it's so funny now to think about there was one person on my interview though that just was tough like they're a tough interviewer and I think you know there was a very blunt question of just do you think you can do this job and inside of myself I was like oh my god this is so fun because like that's what I wanted right I don't want to be and Rachel was given this opportunity I want to be challenged I want to show that I take this so seriously and that person I was like was I that tough I'm like but you should that like this is a really important job in our community and this is a really important opportunity and um shift into so that that's how I you know went about it I guess and I think no matter what you know if you're a executive coming into maybe a chamber role in a community that you didn't grow up in that is new to you I would still give that advice like there's still opportunities and professional ways right to reach out with leadership the volunteer leadership of a chamber to get to know goes such a long way. All of us know that when we're hiring individuals like you take note of who's gone, you know, that extra step to introduce themselves, get to know the organization, make sure they're coming prepared for that interview with any questions and knowing it.

Now I'm remembering in my interview I remember um towards the end when it was my turn to ask questions and this was great advice I got from someone from an interview but I just said hey I would hate to walk out of this room and anybody around this table just wondered to themselves I should have asked Rachel this or I wonder what about this that question got someone on our board that I that did not know me when I worked at the chamber you know it was on and to say, "Hey, actually, I've been wondering about this." And I followed up with that person and they said like, again, not that that made or broke my hiring of this role, but they just said that was a really great way to make sure nothing was left unturned. You're not left wondering. We weren't left wondering. And it gave them a lot of confidence.

Ted Wind: Mhm. Mhm. And so now you've come in, every new CEO or executive director of a chamber, obviously you inherit a mix of things that you need to protect, but then also things that maybe need to change. Almost a year in, what did you deliberately keep from the Cindy Larson era, and where have you put your own stamp on things?

Rachel Gorman: A lot of our programming and events are such powerful and tangible benefits for our members. So, keeping that cadence of our programming was something I was never going to change. Now, the delivery of that was a fun opportunity for me to think differently about how we give members access to information and also lift up our members. But I'm an event planner, right? So, like I'm a sucker for like those kind of things. So that was really fun to just be and it has I should say still been fun to be a little bit more edgy I think with how we promote events and who we're tagging in with those. So that's been fun.

But one new thing that we've been doing that's been a huge gift to me that is not something that I plan for it to happen but again the power of leaning on these really great board members. We've had the board chair I had my first year and as president CEO really took the job seriously and I'm so grateful that they took the time to acknowledge like hey we have new leadership and we're coming off of some great engagement with past board chairs on this transition. Let's continue to capitalize on their wisdom because the Muskegon business community is also in a period of transition. we can't ever, you know, diminish like opportunities to engage with them.

So that board chair organized regular meetings with past board chairs. So you don't have to come our past board chairs. We don't, you know, it's not required attendance, but that has been such a gift for my board officers, myself to learn from our past board chairs, but then it's been this incredible way to keep them engaged with the chamber that they have given so much. And so those board meeting or those meetings I should say with our past board chairs still happen and that's been really really special but really great for me when I look at what's new to me programming initiatives of this chamber. Hey we're going to go into this you know new water. What do you think about that? To get their counsel has been huge and that's not something that was in place before and it's it's just been such a gift for me professionally.

Ted Wind: Mhm. That's really really helpful. And I think what I love to leave, you know, chamber leaders listening on the show is we, you know, we always love to give like one kind of core tactical piece of advice for them. For the chamber leader listening whose CEO is looking at retiring in the next few years, where should that chamber start?

Rachel Gorman: I think if you're a chamber leader with leadership transitioning, so kind of two roads. I think if you're interested in taking that role, no one knows that except you until you make that known. So I think being realistic of is that an opportunity you want to pursue fully knowing, right? Like I had said, the dream could die that the answer might be no, but it's good that someone's thinking about it. So I think aligning yourself to position yourself for that conversation is critical. And also I think it should start with chamber leadership or board leadership as sorry I should say as is appropriate with your organization.

If you're someone still in a chamber leadership role but not interested in that you're still though wondering like who's going to be my boss right when this person leaves. So I think hopefully you know right you can have a direct and honest conversation about who's leading the chamber and just say it bluntly like what is the plan and when you exit from this organization and I think any serious chamber professional should always be thinking about that and I think the leadership transitions we're seeing in all of our communities around the country I think we're being more open and honest about that and so right I think there's a plan in place for me even if I you know here for the next 20 years like we just don't know what is promised tomorrow.

So I think being really clear then especially in the chamber world for those that maybe have a bylaw set up like us like making sure your chair understands like their total responsibilities is far outstanded from board meetings but if something were to happen to me like that's the person in charge and who knows where the insurance policies are and who knows on staff what to do and also like your team like what happens in an emergency. That is a great way to open up a bigger conversation about succession planning core processes that are documented and what to do.

But that would be my advice is to get the conversation going because I would hate for anybody to be in a position where the conversation needs to happen out of urgency, not out of proactive planning.

Ted Wind: Mhm. And as far as proactive planning, do you have any input for maybe what's the smallest useful version of an initial succession plan for a chamber, especially ones with, you know, maybe only a couple staff members?

Rachel Gorman: Yeah. I think again just being well, look at the past, right? Like someone's in a leadership position. How did they get there? And that might be a great way to start a conversation with a board of hey, looking back now, what worked really well? What didn't work well? And also because we're in the relationship business, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to some chamber member, you know, I call them our leadership members. How did they feel about the transition? What do they like to see in their executive director, presidents or CEOs? What's working? What's not working? It's a good opportunity to open that up.

Ted Wind: Love that. Love that. And I I think the core point of all of this is, you know, it's never too early to start thinking about these things and just have something drafted. Have those initial conversations with your board. Get the ball rolling there because like you said, you never know what tomorrow will bring. And you know, the more prepared you can be as a chamber leader, the better for your board, your staff, and your members and the community you serve.

Rachel Gorman: Well, and our members I think we I think sometimes the hesitation for conversations like this, right, are sometimes it can be about the person in that job, but it's really about the chamber. So, you know, there's a new leadership change, right? After a decades-long president, this is somebody not even from our community. Now, they're going to, you know, lead this organization. But that's where the board and that's where a good chamber president, right? It's about the chamber and the mission we're carrying out. It's not about Rachel. It's not about Cindy. It's actually about our members. And I think if you better around there, that makes the conversation way less personal um and way more professional and proactive.

Ted Wind: Love that it is all about the members. Last question that we love to ask all our guests. We close every episode with this one. If you've been listening to the pod for a while, you'll know what's coming. What's one piece of advice you'd give to other chamber leaders at home listening? Rachel,

Rachel Gorman: I think one of my favorite things about our chamber industry is that it is so collaborative. So, um, one cool thing that's been fun about being in this job is the neighboring chambers in our community. So the Michigan West Coast Chamber that serves the Holland-Zeeland area, the chamber in Grand Haven, Spring Lake, Ferrysburg, just south to us in um North Ottawa, they those chambers also had leadership changes within two years of ours.

So there's three chamber presidents that we all did happen to work with each other and know each other from previous roles newly in these positions together. So the opportunity to come together and just talk about, hey, what's working well, what doesn't work well. And part of it's also been our chamber, you know, the listeners of the show know like it is lonely at the top. Having Mark and Jodi from these other chambers, we say all the time, it almost feels like having co-workers, which is really comforting, but also uniquely in the chamber world where I'm not in competition with them and I can look at their programming and events and success of chambers and really ask them, hey, how are you doing that? And trust in transparency like here's how this works for our community. Now, what works in Holland might not work in Muskegon, but there's opportunities to glean from that.

So, again, a huge piece of advice to other chamber leaders listening. Think about who you have access to within our industry that can help you. That could be someone, you know, in your regional community. It might be in your state, but again, chambers are all over. That could be someone on the other corner of this country that is super willing to be, you know, truthful and honest with you about what's working at their chamber and how that might help you get over a challenge you're having.

Ted Wind: 100%. Yeah, that collaboration is something, you know, we've seen work across the board. Whether it's just multi-chamber events, whether it's getting together with a couple local chambers in your area, whether it's getting more involved with, you know, the bigger statewide chamber associations, all these are really great resources for you as chamber leaders to to utilize and again like get that sense of colleagues in a role that, as you said, can often feel pretty lonely and pretty siloed. So, I think that's some really wise words there, Rachel.

Rachel Gorman: Thank you.

Ted Wind: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Rachel. I think this was a really wonderful conversation. My favorite thing about this entire story is I I think it just really proves, you know, as you said, a chamber's value is not necessarily one person, one leader, a logo, even the building, right? It's an institution that's been going strong and is strong enough to hand off across generations. And it's really important to to remember that. And I think obviously the Muskegon Chamber has done a wonderful job of that.

And if you want to learn more about the Muskegon Chamber, some of the work that Rachel has done since she's got started, you can check out their links below in the description.

And to everyone listening, thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of Beyond the Ribbon Cut. We'll see you on the next episode.